Bench those nasty thoughts
Sunday, April 13, 2008
Fellow basket-blogger PhDribble has tasked us and others with a bold mission: Do away with "the cult of the starter." Foster conversation about whether stars should come off the bench, or remove any stigma when writing about reserves. Perhaps this will spark a revolution, or at least a TrueHoop link.
We like PhDribble quite a bit--even if Doctor Dribbles is this close to sending a cease-and-desist--and we like going against the conventional wisdom, too. But this is kind of crazy, right? An NBA where coaches ask max-contract stars to give up starting spots? Which cuts the distinctions between starters and reserves? Perhaps we're mere cultists, but the idea struck us as sheer lunacy.
Naturally, we considered it.
Teams have won with this strategy. Ballhype's Jason Gurney points out the Spurs' success with Manu Ginobili; we remembered how the raw Ervin Johnson started and the aging Sam Perkins closed for the great mid-90s Sonics. Teams have lost by ignoring the strategy, too. PhDribble notes how Detroit--with an established core of veterans in 2003--erred by drafting Darko Milicic over Carmelo Anthony, largely to avoid the roster controversy of Melo pushing Tayshaun Prince for a starting spot.
Interestingly, PhDribble contends that some stars don't co-exist well; for example, the Rockets might be better if Yao Ming and Tracy McGrady played as little of the game together as possible. To some extent, that suggestion "feels" right--simply, Yao is slow, T-Mac is fast, and the Rockets could tweak their on-court quintet to maximize each star's skills. Plus, some stats and performance seem to bear the idea out. Houston won ten games in a row even without Yao, as McGrady boosted his scoring average; according to 82games.com, the pair have a lower winning percentage and adjusted +/- this year when playing together than playing apart.
In fact, unlike Deron Williams/Carlos Boozer, or Pau Gasol/Kobe Bryant, Yao/McGrady might be the most incompatible pair of stars in the NBA...which is why we think PhDribble's argument falters. Let's explain.
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Performance
Looking at the bigger picture, most good NBA coaches can structure a system to feature multiple stars' strengths, such as Mike D'Antoni incorporating Shaq into the Suns or Don Nelson maximizing the Warriors' run n' gun. For their part, unless a player needs the ball in his hands--like an aging and one-legged Chris Webber--the greats can learn to complement one another, like the Celtics' or Wizards' trios. And even if Yao and T-Mac are particularly ill-matched, they still make for a more formidable combo together than apart.
First, the Rockets' +/- stats this year are thrown off by their massive winning streak with Yao injured. Looking back on similar figures from 2006 and 2007, the team clearly was better with both stars on the floor. Plus, Yao and McGrady were each more productive players this year when playing together; without Yao drawing the double team, T-Mac's FG% and 3P% measurably fell even as his shot attempts jumped up, while Yao's own performance slid and his turnovers went up 30% per game as he tried to do more without T-Mac.
PhDribble also proposes Melo and AI as another mismatched set of stars. Again, the +/- this year backs that up, a bit...but it was just the opposite last year. Given that the +/- data isn't conclusive, we'd contend it's the lack of talent around the stars that's kept Denver from clinching a playoff berth.
Frankly, most stars play better when they've got superior players surrounding them, creating more opportunities and allowing the star to do more within a role. Although Manu's devastating off the bench, even he's more productive as a starter than as a sub.
Pecking order
As goathair pointed out, bloggers can try and change perceptions, but there will always be five starters; with starting spots come minutes, as a coach wants his five best players on the floor in hopes of establishing an early lead--he's not looking to inject energy at the five-minute mark unless the team needs it.
And as we'd argued, this hierarchy is key; it incents reserves to fight for more minutes, not accept their place off the bench. Acknowledging such hierarchies, PhDribble wonders if having a pecking order is "necessary or a crutch?"--but we think even talent-laden teams need a rotation.
For example, the 1995-1996 Kentucky Wildcats were an unbelievably loaded college basketball team; the NCAA champs featured eight future NBA players (five starters, three reserves), even after coach Rick Pitino red-shirted one player (future 2nd round draft pick Jared Prickett) and ran off another (future NBA swingman Rodrick Rhodes) to further avoid team infighting. If there was ever a team that could blur the distinctions between starters and reserves, it was this one. And sure--ten guys ended up playing regular minutes, but only five players started 24 or more games, as even Pitino needed to establish a consistent rotation for game-planning purposes.
Perks
Having attended last night's Wizards victory, we were reminded yet again--it may not be the United Center circa MJ, but there's nothing like a crowd of thousands chanting your name during introductions.
There's so little stigma associated with being a reserve in the NBA, when you think about it; the average bench player somehow deals with a multiple million-dollar contract, a huge per diem, fancy hotels, and indiscriminate groupies. It's a comfortable life for many players who never scratched their full potential...really, there should be more incentives for starting positions, not fewer.
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We do agree on one point, though: There's considerably more greatness coming off the bench than just Manu or Leandro Barbosa. So we'll do our part to help celebrate it.
As some folks know, we're hosting the final edition of this year's blogger NBA awards...and thinking of ways to better recognize the reserves, we've come up with the new "Seventh Man" award, which is exactly how it sounds.
It probably won't make TJ Ford feel better about losing his spot to Jose Calderon, or get John Salmons to stop sulking.
But when de-programming cultists like us...it's a start.
Labels: Bench, Ginobili, NBA, PhDribble, sports blogs are on fire
posted by Crucifictorious @ 22:10,
71 Comments:
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At April 14, 2008 1:49 PM,
Joe said...
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Could Boozer and Kirilenko be the most mismatched duo? AK-47 lost his bread and butter when Boozer returned; he's still pretty good as a three, but what if he spotted Carlos as the 4 off the bench (and Boozer played some at 5, instead of Okur)?
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At April 14, 2008 2:01 PM,
Allen said...
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In total agreement with you.
Who cares if you start, as long as you get "starter's minutes"?
On that note, a maximum of minutes played should be the criteria for the sixth man of the year, not how many games you didn't start. -
At April 14, 2008 3:33 PM,
Truth About It said...
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It's all about the ego. Basketball players are just like lawyers.
The TJ Ford-Calderon thing is interesting.
Calderon has obviously become the better player, yet has volunteered to come off the bench.
Perhaps Mitchell actually "volunteered" Jose, but I think that everyone noticed that TJ was more effective as a starter...immediately jumping in the game and providing his little-man spark from the get-go.
Meanwhile, Calderon gladly comes from the bench to manage the game with his precise limp-wristedness.
It's no surprise that he's a Euro....where most all budding superstars, would-be NBA lottery picks, pay their dues coming off the pine.
As the easy out to this argument, it's a CB-squared situation(case by case basis).
Unfortunately, most NBA coaches do not have the pull, or gonads, to do what's right for their team....and in many cases, it's the need for some type of spark plug to come off the bench and put the ball through the net.
I feel like I'm rambling. That is all. -
At April 14, 2008 9:29 PM,
said...
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It's not who starts the game... it's who finishes. just ask the Mavs and Jason Kidd.
Manu finishes all the games and plays more than some of the starters. -
At April 15, 2008 9:36 AM,
said...
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the blazers call give themselves two team names - red and white - rather than starters and the bench.
Nate McMillan often talks about how the white team did.
helps reduce the felling of heirarchy -
At April 15, 2008 10:52 AM,
said...
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the idea of one star coming on, another going off is nifty but not really feasible anyway. it's not like Yao Ming is going to play only 24 minutes and Tracy McGrady will play the other 24 minutes.
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At April 15, 2008 2:02 PM,
Justin said...
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Longtime NBAer Scott Padgett also redshirted in '95-96.
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At April 15, 2008 7:38 PM,
www.ivblogz.com/reviewsandrants/ said...
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You know what's great about the great We Rite Goode blog? Not only is it consistently great thanks to its great writing, great topics and great analysis, but it also uses the word "great" greatly. I had no idea so many things qualified as great, like the "great mid-90's Sonics". That's great!
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At April 15, 2008 8:15 PM,
Crucifictorious said...
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Joe- It's a tiny sample size of 125 minutes, but a Boozer-Kirilenko-Millsap-Brewer-Williams lineup has been great for the Jazz over the course of the year (however, AK still plays the 3 in that scenario).
Allen and Anon, great points and totally agree. Manu plays nearly as many minutes as Kevin Garnett, as much crunch time as any star, and certainly more PT than half the starters in the league.
Truth, we forgot that TJ was back in the starting lineup...in part because he was less than great off the bench. An example of how sending starters to the pine doesn't always fly.
Holder, didn't know that--and makes perfect sense in Portland, which has been great with getting buy-in from younger players.
Fenster, you have to admit: When you can rotate players like that in NBA Live, it's great for their numbers.
Justin, that Wildcats team was great, wasn't it? But think Padgett had academic problems (so it wasn't just a redshirt to prevent roster problems).
IVblogz...you don't make a very goode point. -
At April 16, 2008 2:47 PM,
www.ivblogz.com/reviewsandrants/ said...
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crucifictorious, do you mean to tell me that you're OK with GP and Kemp's Sonics being called great?! I understand every basketball fan feels for the Sonics these days, but great teams don't get run out of town in the first round of the playoffs by low ranking teams -- TWICE!
Would you call Dirk's Mavericks a historically great team?
Would you mention the mid-90's Sonics in the same sentence with the Showtime Lakers? ... The '86 Celts? ... Jordan's Bulls? -
At April 16, 2008 8:57 PM,
Crucifictorious said...
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Putting aside several oddities--such as why a site built around misspellings is arguing semantics with a blogzer--yes, those Sonics were great. Not "historically great"...which wasn't what was written...but great. We'll stand behind that.
Between 1992 and 1998, the average Sonics team went 60-22--the same record the Bulls averaged over that span--with several statistics suggesting that the Sonics were the more dominant regular season team.
Obviously, the playoff failures kill the comparison--beyond the first-round losses, the Sonics had zero titles to the Bulls' four. But Payton and Kemp took a pair of Finals games from the winningest team ever--and lost two game 7s to extremely good Suns and Rockets teams. And even if they underachieved in the postseason, does that mean discounting the 82+ games that came beforehand?
The Mavs comparison is a good one, as they're arguably this decade's Sonics (although, we'd argue that a pre-cocaine Kemp/Payton/Schrempf/Hawkins core was stronger than Dirk/Howard/Terry/Harris). And, with a little distance, we'd think those 60-win Mavericks teams were pretty great, too. But not historically so.
Obviously, we differ on the definition...greatness seems a few levels below transcendence. And does it only accompany titles? We'd argue that the 1996 Sonics--rallying from crushing first-round losses to win 64 games and challenge the Bulls--achieved a measure of the word.
Moreover, can't multiple teams be great in the same season, even though only one can take the crown? -
At April 18, 2008 2:51 AM,
www.ivblogz.com/reviewsandrants/ said...
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This post has been removed by the author.
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At April 18, 2008 3:00 AM,
www.ivblogz.com/reviewsandrants/ said...
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Ha ha! First off, I had no say in my site's silly name.
Second, while I'm no English major, when someone talks about a team that disbanded a decade ago, I think it can only be a discussion of their place in history. And referring to GP's Sonics as, "[THE] great mid-90's Sonics", is unwarranted.
I’m sure we can all agree those Sonics teams underachieved, right? Those Sonics can't be described as both great and underachieving anymore than Renee Zellweger can be described as both hot and ugly. The mid-90's Sonics were underachievers and nothing more.
The fact that you have to describe truly great teams as "transcendent" in order to call teams like those Sonics "great" is crazy! That's what I've been saying all along. Calling the mid-90's Sonics great cheapens the word.
I think we're seeing several great teams play this season, and it's the most exciting season I've watched in the past 14 years. We'll look back at this one for a long time. But I think there is a huge difference between a team that has a great season and a team the is great.
The '96 Sonics had a great season. The '06 Mavericks had a great season. Those weren't/aren't great teams (but the Mavs still have a chance to change that). -
At April 20, 2008 1:44 PM,
Crucifictorious said...
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IV, we're going to have to agree to disagree.
Your own response illustrates the semantic difficulties--so there are "several great teams" this season...but there's a "difference between a team that has a great season and a team the is great." Clearly, "great" is a useful catch-all word...and when comparing the Sonics and Bulls, most fans know to make a distinction.
Of course, we share your opinion--we would never say "the great Miami Heat teams of the mid-2000s"...championship aside, that squad has lost more games than won over the past seven years. But even if we followed your methodology and specified a year, say, "the great Sonics of 1995-1996"...it sounds like you'd disagree on principle, given your antipathy toward that team.
We appreciate your well-argued thoughts, though, and hope you'll challenge us on other things we've written. Since debating etymology isn't a great use of any fan's time--especially during the playoffs--we hope you'll find something more discussion-worthy in the subject of one of our posts, rather than keying on a throwaway reference. -
At April 21, 2008 4:13 PM,
www.ivblogz.com/reviewsandrants/ said...
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Oh, absolutely. I like this blog. I had never heard of it until True Hoop linked to it last week. I'll be reading regularly.
(And I'm glad you mentioned the Heat. I agree that a championship title doesn't make a team instantly great. I'm wondering how history will treat the Pistons if they lose more games like they did against the Sixers.) -
At August 22, 2009 3:59 PM,
出張ホスト said...
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女性会員様増加につき、当サイトの出張ホストが不足中です。女性の自宅やホテルに出向き、欲望を満たすお手伝いをしてくれる男性アルバイトをただいま募集していますので、興味のある方はTOPページから無料登録をお願いいたします
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At August 23, 2009 12:20 AM,
randr (ivblogz) said...
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Ni puta idea lo que escribio este guey.
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At September 3, 2009 3:00 PM,
デリバリーホスト said...
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女性向け風俗サイトで出張デリバリーホストをしてみませんか？時給２万円の高額アルバイトです。無料登録をしてあとは女性からの呼び出しを待つだけなので、お試し登録も歓迎です。興味をもたれた方は今すぐどうぞ。
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At September 10, 2009 2:04 PM,
熟女サークル said...
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性欲のピークを迎えたセレブ熟女たちは、お金で男性を買うことが多いようです。当、熟女サークルでは全国各地からお金持ちのセレブたちが集まっています。女性から男性への報酬は、 最低15万円からとなっております。興味のある方は一度当サイト案内をご覧ください
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At September 17, 2009 1:59 PM,
セレブ said...
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セレブラブでは心とカラダに癒しを求めるセレブ女性と会って頂ける男性を募集しています。セレブ女性が集まる当サイトではリッチな彼女たちからの謝礼を保証、安心して男性はお金、女性は体の欲求を満たしていただけます。興味がある方は当サイトトップページからぜひどうぞ
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At September 19, 2009 12:37 PM,
ゲイ said...
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ゲイの数が飛躍的に増えている現代、彼らの出逢いの場は雑誌やハッテン場からネットに移り変わってきています。当サイトは日本最大のゲイ男性の交流の場を目指して作られました。おかげさまで会員数も右肩上がりに伸びています。ゲイの方や興味のある方はぜひ当サイトをご覧ください。
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At September 24, 2009 3:54 PM,
素人 said...
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さびしい女性や、欲求不満な素人女性たちを心も体も癒してあげるお仕事をご存じですか？女性宅やホテルに行って依頼主の女性とHしてあげるだけで高額の謝礼を手に入れる事が出来るのです。興味のある方は当サイトTOPページをご覧ください
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At September 28, 2009 12:35 PM,
右脳左脳チェッカー said...
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パーティーや合コンでも使える右脳左脳チェッカー！あなたの頭脳を分析して直観的な右脳派か、理詰めな左脳派か診断出来ます。診断結果には思いがけない発見があるかも！みんなで診断して盛り上がろう
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At October 1, 2009 12:11 PM,
出張ホスト said...
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女性会員様増加につき、出張ホストのアルバイトが不足中です。ホテルや女性の自宅に出向き、彼女たちの欲望を満たすお手伝いをしてくれる男性アルバイトをただいま募集しております。興味のある方はTOPページをご覧ください
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At October 2, 2009 1:39 PM,
友達募集 said...
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美容院いってきた記念に写メを更新しました。結構気に入ってるんですけどどうですか？メール乗せておくのでメッセお待ちしてるなりmiracle.memory@docomo.ne.jp
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At October 4, 2009 12:59 PM,
家出掲示板 said...
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最近雑誌やTVで紹介されている家出掲示板では、全国各地のマンガ喫茶等を泊り歩いている家出少女のメッセージが多数書き込みされています。彼女たちはお金がないので掲示板で知り合った男性の家にでもすぐに遊びに行くようです。あなたも書き込みに返事を返してみませんか
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At October 9, 2009 1:28 PM,
プロフ said...
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プロフ作ったわいいけど見てくれる人いなくて少し残念な気分に陥ってます。意見でもいいので見た方がいましたら一言コメント送ってくだしゃいメアドのせているのでよろしくでしゅapotheosis@docomo.ne.jp
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乱交パーティー said...
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At October 13, 2009 12:55 PM,
家出 said...
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家出している女の子と遊んでみませんか？彼女たちはお金に困っているので、掲示板で知り合ったいろんな男の家を泊り歩いている子も多いのです。そんな子たちとの出逢いの場を提供しています
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At October 15, 2009 12:56 PM,
逆¥交際 said...
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出会ぃも今は逆¥交際！オンナがオトコを買う時代になりました。当サイトでは逆援希望の女性が男性を自由に選べるシステムを採用しています。経済的に成功を収めた女性ほど金銭面は豊かですが愛に飢えているのです。いますぐTOPページからどうぞ
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At October 16, 2009 1:55 PM,
プロフ said...
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世界の中心で貴方を叫ぶような恋がしたいんです。愛に飢えているゆいと恋バナ話ませんか？メアドのっけてるので気になる方は連絡頂戴ねuna-cima@docomo.ne.jp
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At October 22, 2009 1:49 PM,
出張ホスト said...
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女性向け風俗サイトで出張ホストをしてみませんか？時給２万円以上の高額アルバイトです。無料登録をしてあとは女性からの呼び出しを待つだけでOK、お試し登録も歓迎です。興味をもたれた方は今すぐどうぞ。
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At October 23, 2009 1:37 PM,
said...
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友達の前では少し強がって彼氏なんかいらないって言ってしまうけど、やっぱ本音では欲しいです、夜は寒いし寂しいし私の本音に気付いてください。メアド乗せておくので優しい方連絡くださいtoward.the-future@docomo.ne.jp
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At October 29, 2009 2:19 PM,
若妻 said...
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セレブと言われる世の若妻は男に飢えています、特に地位が邪魔して出会いが意外と少ないから、SEXサークルを通じて日頃のストレス発散に毎日男を買い漁っています。ここは彼女達ご用達の口コミサイトです
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At October 30, 2009 3:13 PM,
said...
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一人で家出したんだけど助けてほしいです。今まで強がってました。もう親には頼れない…super-love.smile@docomo.ne.jp
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At November 1, 2009 1:17 PM,
お宝映像 said...
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激レア映像！芸能人のお宝映像を一挙公開中！無料登録するだけでレアなお宝映像やハプニング画像が取り放題、期間限定の動画も見逃せない
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At November 3, 2009 12:21 PM,
熟女 said...
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仕事を辞めてください。一日で今の月収を超えるお誘いがあります。某有名セレブ熟女の強い要望により少しの間、恋人契約という女性からのお申し込みがありました。今までは地位や名誉のために頑張ってこられたようでございますが年齢を重ね、寂しさが強くなってきたようでございます。男性との時間を欲しがっている女性に癒しを与えてくださいませ
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At November 5, 2009 12:50 PM,
１人H said...
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１人Hのお手伝い、救援部でHな見せたがり女性からエロ写メ、ムービーをゲットしよう！近所の女の子なら実際に合ってHな事ができちゃうかも！？開放的な女の子と遊んじゃおう
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At November 6, 2009 12:35 PM,
said...
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ストーカーの追い回されて怖いんです。毎日夜になると非通知電話多いし怖い。。。助けてくださいpeach-.-girl@docomo.ne.jp
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At November 7, 2009 11:26 AM,
スタビ said...
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復活、スタービーチ！日本最大の友達探しサイトがついに復活、進化を遂げた新生スタービーチをやってみませんか？理想のパートナー探しの手助け、合コンパーティー等も随時開催しています。楽しかった頃のスタビを体験しよう
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At November 8, 2009 11:16 AM,
処女 said...
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「友達の中で処女なのは私だけ…でも恥ずかしくて処女だなんて言えない、誰でもイイからバージンを貰ってほしい！」そんな女性が沢山いる事をご存じですか？出合いが無かった、家が厳格だった等の理由でHを経験したことがない女性がたくさんいるのです。当サイトはそんな女性たちと男性を引き合わせるサイトです
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At November 9, 2009 11:35 AM,
メアド開運 said...
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メアド開運、あなたの使ってるメアドを診断出来ちゃうサイト！吉と出るか凶と出るかはあなた次第、普段使ってるメアドの金運、恋愛運が測定できちゃいます
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At November 10, 2009 11:18 AM,
逆¥交際 said...
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今話題の逆¥交際！あなたはもう体験しましたか？当サイトでは逆援希望の女性が男性を自由に選べるシステムを採用しています。成功を収めた女性ほど金銭面は豊かですが愛に飢えているのです。いますぐTOPページからどうぞ
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豪華賞品 said...
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At November 13, 2009 3:23 PM,
said...
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彼氏にＤＶされて、ちょっと男性不信です。でも、恋愛して彼氏も作りたいと思ってるので、優しく接してくれる人を探してます。連絡待ってまぁす！ pretty-toy-poodle@docomo.ne.jp
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At November 14, 2009 12:37 PM,
神待ち said...
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家出をして不安な少女たちの書込が神待ち掲示板に増えています。一日遊んであげたり、家に招いて泊まらせてあげるだけで、彼女たちはあなたに精一杯のお礼をしてくれるはずです
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At November 15, 2009 11:47 AM,
乱交 said...
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全国乱交連盟主催、スワップパーティーに参加しませんか？初めての方でも安心してお楽しみいただけるパーティーです。参加費は無料、開催地も全国に１２０ヶ所ありますので気軽に参加してお楽しみ下さい
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At November 16, 2009 11:50 AM,
アブノーマル said...
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SM・露出・スワッピング・レズ・女装・フェチなど…普通じゃ物足りないあなたが思う存分楽しめる世界！貴方だけのパートナーを探してみませんか？アブノーマルでしか味わえない至福の時をお過ごしください
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At November 17, 2009 12:01 PM,
セレブラブ said...
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セレブラブでは毎月１０万円を最低ラインとする謝礼を得て、セレブ女性に快楽を与える仕事があります。無料登録した後はメールアプローチを待つだけでもOK、あなたも当サイトで欲求を満たしあう関係を作ってみませんか
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At November 18, 2009 3:17 PM,
裏バイト said...
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簡単に大金を稼ぐことができる裏バイトがあります。女性が好きな方、健康な方なら日給３万円以上の収入を得ることも可能です。興味のある方はHPをご覧ください
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At November 19, 2009 2:29 PM,
救援部 said...
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一人Hを男性に見てもらうことで興奮する女性が多数いることをご存じですか？当サイト、救援部ではそんな女性たちが多数登録されています。男性会員様は彼女たちのオ○ニーを見てあげるだけで謝礼を貰えるシステムとなっております。
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At November 20, 2009 2:10 PM,
said...
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冬に1人ボッチで家でご飯とかオヤスミなんて寂しすぎるょ～～っ！こんなところに書き込んだら削除されちゃいそうだけど少しでもきっかけ作らなくっちゃと思って書いてみましたっ！！気軽に会ったり出来たりする方ってこの掲示板見てませんか～！？良かったらメールくださいね★フリメだったら私気付けないんで携帯のアドレス乗せておくねっ！！ love-sexy@docomo.ne.jp
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At November 21, 2009 1:18 PM,
失恋 said...
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失恋は心に深い傷を残します。その傷を癒す特効薬、それは新しい出会い。あなたの心を癒す、素晴らしい出会いを当サイトで見つけて、笑顔を取り戻してください
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At November 22, 2009 12:50 PM,
高額バイト said...
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高額バイトのご案内です。欲求不満になっている女性を癒して差し上げるお仕事です。参加にあたり用紙、学歴等は一切問いません。高収入を稼ぎたい、女性に興味のある方はぜひどうぞ
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At November 23, 2009 1:40 PM,
交際 said...
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スタービーチの突然の閉鎖、優良な友達探しサイトが無くなってしまいましたが、新生・スタービーチがここに復活しました！、進化を遂げた新生スタービーチをやってみませんか？理想の交際探しの手助け、合コンパーティー等も随時開催しています。楽しかった頃のスタビを体験しよう
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At November 25, 2009 1:50 PM,
神待ちサイト said...
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「家出してるんで、泊まるところないですか？」家出救済神待ちサイトには毎日このような女の子からの書き込みがされています。彼女たちはホテルや家に泊まらせてあげたり、遊んであげるだけであなたに精一杯のお礼をしてくれるはずです
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At November 26, 2009 1:45 PM,
露出 said...
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普通のプレイじゃ絶対味わえない快感、それは野外露出プレイ。最初は嫌がっていた女も次第にハマっていって、その内それが快感に変わってきます。野外露出プレイで興奮度アップ間違い無し
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At November 27, 2009 12:49 PM,
said...
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早い時期に結婚してしまって、少し後悔しているんです。私は、今の夫しか経験が無くって、このままでいいのかなって…。思うようになってきてしまって…冒険はしたいんですけど、やっぱりばれたりしたら怖いので…割り切りで会える方って居ませんでしょうか？連絡お待ちしてますね♪最初に年齢を教えてくれるとうれしいです。pop-music-lo-ve@docomo.ne.jp
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At December 4, 2009 9:08 PM,
said...
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最近寂しくて困っています。夜一人で寝るのが凄く寂しいです…隣で添い寝してくれる男性いませんか？見た目とか特に気にしません。優しくて一緒にいてくれる方大歓迎☆一緒に布団で温まりましょう♪shart.enamorado.de-me@docomo.ne.jp
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At December 8, 2009 9:14 PM,
¥倶楽部 said...
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出会ぃも今は¥倶楽部！オンナがオトコを買う時代になりました。当サイトでは逆援希望の女性が男性を自由に選べるシステムを採用しています。経済的に成功を収めた女性ほど金銭面は豊かですが愛に飢えているのです。いますぐTOPページからどうぞ
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At December 9, 2009 10:20 PM,
野外露出 said...
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今迄は野外露出がマイナスイメージと囚われがちですが、実際は開放的な気分になり有名人のヌーディストが、オープンになる事を推奨してるぐらいです。このサイトをキッカケに知り合った娘達と野外で楽しみませんか
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At December 12, 2009 8:14 PM,
ライブチャット said...
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当サイトでは無料でオナ動画を見ることができます。また、ライブチャット機能でリアルタイムオ○ニーを見るチャンスも高く、興奮間違いなしです。また、一人Hのお手伝いを希望される女性もあり、お手伝いいただけた方には謝礼をお支払いしております
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At December 13, 2009 9:01 PM,
スタービーチ said...
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日本最大、だれもが知っている出会い系スタービーチがついに復活、進化を遂げた新生スタビをやってみませんか？趣味の合う理想のパートナー探しの手助け、合コンパーティー等も随時開催しています。楽しかった頃のスタビで遊んでみよう
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At December 16, 2009 8:05 PM,
スタービーチ said...
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一時代を築いたスタービーチは閉鎖になりましたが、もう一度楽しい思いをしたい、もう一度出会いたいと思う有志により再度復活しました。本家以上に簡単に出会えて楽しい思いを約束します
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At December 18, 2009 7:07 PM,
said...
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誰にも言えない秘密があります。実はとってもＨなんです、せっかく女として生まれたからにはアブノーマルな世界に飛び込んでみたいです☆普段では考えられないプレイを思う存分楽しみ、経験したいんです♪快楽に溺れさせてくれませんか？一緒に感じ合いましょう！！都合はつくのですぐに時間を合わせられます。18歳よりも上の方がいいです！！ quietness@docomo.ne.jp
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At December 19, 2009 7:50 PM,
流出 said...
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流出サイトでは、有名人から素人までの他では見れない秘蔵の動画を入手しています。何より素人が相手の場合に限り、アポを採る事も可能です。動画でお手軽に抜いて、抜き足らない場合は、女の子にハメて来て下さい
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At December 20, 2009 6:59 PM,
グリー said...
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日本最大級、だれもが知っている出会い系スタービーチがついに復活、グリーより面白い新生スタビをやってみませんか？趣味の合う理想のパートナー探し、合コンパーティーに興味がある方はぜひ無料登録してみてください。楽しかった頃のスタビで遊んでみよう
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At December 21, 2009 7:44 PM,
SM度チェッカー said...
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あなたのSM度を簡単診断、SM度チェッカーで隠された性癖をチェック！真面目なあの娘も夜はドS女王様、ツンデレなあの子も実はイジめて欲しい願望があるかも！？コンパや飲み会で盛り上がること間違いなしのおもしろツールでみんなと盛り上がろう
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At December 22, 2009 7:26 PM,
リッチセックス said...
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女性には風俗がない！そんな悩みを持つセレブ女たちは、リッチセックスでお金を使い自分を満たします。金銭面では豊かですが、愛に飢えている彼女たちを癒して高額な報酬を手に入れてみませんか
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At December 23, 2009 7:48 PM,
神待ち said...
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女子○生の個人情報公開！？遊び盛りの神待ち女子○生の写メ・アドレス・番号を公開中！好みの女の子を選んで直メ・直電で今すぐ待ち合わせしよう
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At December 24, 2009 7:48 PM,
高級チェリー said...
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高級チェリーの冬は童貞卒業のシーズンです。童貞を食べたい女性達もウズウズしながら貴方との出会いを待っています。そんな女性達に童貞を捧げ、貴方もハッピーライフを送ってみませんか
